The Power of Female Mentorship in Medicine

Transcript

Emily Holwick: Welcome to Inside Family Medicine, where you hear from leaders and peers in your specialty while learning about new tools and resources. I'm your host, Emily Holwick, a member of Team AAFP. Today we have three incredible current and former AAFP leaders who are joining us to talk about the power of female mentorship in medicine, Dr. Sarah Nosal, Dr. Aerial Petty, and Dr. Tochi Iroku-Malize. And this is an extra-special recording because we get to be together in person at the AFP's FUTURE conference in Kansas City.

So I'll do a brief intro of each of our guests. Dr. Sarah Nosal is the AAFP's president-elect, and is vice president for innovation and optimization and chief medical information officer at the Institute for Family Health, a federally qualified health center network in the New York City area. She's practiced in the South Bronx for nearly two decades. She earned her medical degree from Albert Einstein College of Medicine in the Bronx and completed her residency in Urban Family Practice Beth Israel Medical Center and Institute for Family Health in New York City.

Dr. Aerial Petty is the resident member of the AAFP's Board of Directors. She's completing the Family Medicine Center for Professionalism and Value in Healthcare George Washington University Health Policy Research Fellowship. She graduated from the Alabama College of Osteopathic Medicine and was chief resident at New York Presbyterian-Columbia University Medical Center.

And Dr. Tochi Iroku-Malize is a former AAFP board chair, and she serves as founding chair and professor of family medicine for the Donald and Barbara Zucker's School of Medicine at Hofstra/Northwell in Hempstead, New York, and senior vice president and chair of the Family Medicine Service Line for Northwell Health. She earned her medical degree from the University of Nigeria College of Medicine and Dentistry, and completed residency training in family medicine at Southside Hospital in New York.

Very accomplished ladies we have with us here today, and we're so excited to talk to you all. Thank you for joining us. I know it's going to be an inspiring conversation.

Dr. Tochi Iroku-Malize: Thanks for having us.

Emily Holwick: So we like to start out our episodes with talking about why you each chose family medicine. I'll start with you, Dr. Iroku-Malize.

Dr. Tochi Iroku-Malize: OK, so I chose family medicine because I knew early on that I was going to work internationally, so that's the honest truth of it.

And so I had to figure out what specialty would it allow me, wherever I was dropped, to take care of anybody, anywhere, anytime, and of all the specialties, family medicine was the one that could do that for me. So that's what drew me to the specialty, that that whoever showed up at my door, I had them.

Emily Holwick: Dr. Nosal, how about for you?

Dr. Sarah Nosal: I really didn't know family medicine existed. I had been taken care of by pediatricians and thought I was going to be a pediatrician. I knew I wanted to work with under-resourced communities, people who were unhoused and was doing that work shadowing a pediatrician as a first-year med student when that pediatrician had a young woman and her kid come in who were both street homeless, came in to get care for the little kid.

And then she mentioned she needed care too, and he said, “I can't take care of you. You've aged out.” And I was like, “Oh my gosh, what does that even mean?” She was 23 years old; he couldn't care for her. And I said, “Well, what kind of doctor could take care of both of them?” And he's like, “Oh, a family doctor.” And I was like, “Well, obviously I have to be a family doctor.”

And I didn't know that was even an opportunity, but I knew very similar on theme, Dr. Iroku-Malize, that anyone who came in the door, I wanted to be able to meet their family's whole…all of their needs. And I found out in my first year of med school that family doctors were where that was, and I never looked back.

Emily Holwick: I love that you found your perfect fit.

Dr. Petty, what drew you to family medicine?

Dr. Aerial Petty: I just love people. People make me happy. And so to be able to take care of anyone anywhere was my happy place. I remember when I was applying and interviewing for family medicine residency programs and program directors asked me why family medicine and my program director asked me why family medicine.

And I had this beautiful statement prepared on why. And instead, what came out was, I am nosy. So I think that is the most accurate reason for why I chose family medicine. I'm nosy. I want to know everything about everyone, and to hear that something is out of my scope just did not sit well with me. If I'm going to make a recommendation for someone, I understand that that affects their families, and so to be able to care for families was just really, really important to me.

Emily Holwick: Well, that serves you well in family medicine. Thank you all for sharing that.

We're focusing on female mentorship in this episode, and we've brought you together because first of all, you are leaders in this specialty as current or former members of the AAFP board, but also because you're all personally connected through mentorship, which is just so awesome.

Dr. Nosal, you have been mentored by Dr. Iroku-Malize throughout your career, and in turn then you've mentored Dr. Petty as well, as she has come onto the board. Can you talk about the impact that mentorship has had on you in your career and the importance of now being that mentor for others?

Finding your models

Dr. Sarah Nosal: I actually remember when I first met Dr. Iroku-Malize. I don't know if you remember, it was right at the end of the the first board meeting where I was just elected as a director.

Dr. Tochi Iroku-Malize: OK.

Dr. Sarah Nosal: And you and James…

Dr. Tochi Iroku-Malize: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Sarah Nosal: …were both up for…

Dr. Tochi Iroku-Malize: Oh!

Dr. Sarah Nosal: …board chair…

Dr. Tochi Iroku-Malize: Yeah!

Dr. Sarah Nosal: …and executive chair…

Dr. Tochi Iroku-Malize: Right.

Dr. Sarah Nosal: …and I was like, who is this human? Like, this is amazing. And, and you were already, like inspirational, and I hadn't probably spoken a sentence to you yet, but that was day one of my being a director on the New York State Academy Board. And Dr. Iroku-Malize was already well on her way to leadership, both in our state and national academy.

And right away you can look around and you're trying to find those people that you want to model your yourself after. And initially you think, “I need to find the person who's doing exactly what I want to do.” Except those people don't exist. And particularly in family medicine, because everyone's career is so unique.

Dr. Tochi Iroku-Malize: Yeah.

Dr. Sarah Nosal: And as you then meet people who are doing really important work, who are leading in unique ways, who are being moms and bringing their families and showing you that all these paths are possible, you're like, oh, these are the pieces I'm going to take from this person. And I am going to then, as I learn that, hopefully be able to look at the next people coming up after me who both look and don't look like me, who are coming from the same and different backgrounds, and think like, who else is like looking around and looking for that person, and who else is going to figure out, “I don't need to be doing exactly what they want to be doing to be able to be a part of their journey.”

Dr. Aerial Petty: I can attest. She's teaching me that very well.

Emily Holwick: Mission accomplished! Yay, great job.

Dr. Iroku-Malize, what does it mean to you to hear the impact that you've had as a mentor for Dr. Nosal, and probably for so many other family physicians as well, and why do you think that that female mentorship in medicine is so valuable?

Dr. Tochi Iroku-Malize: So it's nice, it's heartwarming. I mean, this podcast is… You guys are going make all of us cry. We already have our tissues here already.

Dr. Aerial Petty: Yes, she brought me tissues!

Dr. Tochi Iroku-Malize: No, we have it. I have it right here just in case.

The importance of women mentors in leadership

But no, it's good. And I'm not going to look at you and Sarah as I say this, because I don't want to cry, but sometimes you don't know how much of an impact you have on people and it is just… I'm fortunate that Sarah's been in my life this whole time, so that she's able to say it every once in a while: “Hey, you know, you're it. Thank you so much.” Right?

But it's very heartwarming. It shows that every day you don't know whose life you're impacting. There are some some people who are in your life continuously, but then, you know, there are people that you may just meet. Like even here as we're in at the FUTURE conference, if someone stops you, asks you a question, have that conversation with them, share some insights with them because you don't know how that's going to affect them moving forward.

The number of people I've had who have come up to me later in life and said, “Oh, by the way, I met you when I was a medical student 10 years ago.” I'm like, really? Or, “I saw you,” or, “I bumped into you,” and things like that.

But I think it's really important to answer the second part of your question. It's important, especially amongst women, just in order to share lived experiences, the understanding that there are certain parts of life and our career journeys that are a little bit different because we are women, right?

And just, just be frank about it. That's the way it is, in terms of certain inequities, whether it's in pay or in job opportunities or just being recognized, period.

And so even being on stage, you know, you think about it, like even our board and things like that, things have changed over the years. But it's been because of intentional mentorship and pulling people and saying to them, “Hey,” and showing up in spaces even when you don't feel like it, showing up because you know that I'm showing up today because there's somebody out there who needs to see me and say, “OK, I can do this.”

And so that's, that's why I think having women in leadership roles, mentoring others is really important.

Emily Holwick: I love that sentiment that you're inspiring people and maybe even being a mentor from afar if you don't even know. Maybe you've never even talked to that person, but they see your career and what you're doing and that you're showing up in those spaces, and that's inspiring them and really guiding their journey as well.

Dr. Tochi Iroku-Malize: Yeah.

Emily Holwick: Dr. Petty, you're the earliest in your career here. How has mentorship helped you chart your path in family medicine?

Applying lessons from mentors every day

Dr. Aerial Petty: Mentorship is why I am here today. It's why I am like sitting in this seat in this exact moment. And it is very fitting that I'm sitting next to Dr. Nosal, and I told her I was about to just talk about her for the majority of this podcast, but like I took notes because Dr. Nosal taught me to take notes and come prepared. So I have examples of how her mentorship has brought me where am today.

So, Dr. Nosel taught me…

Dr. Sarah Nosal: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Aerial Petty: …how to write a speech. She taught me that at the beginning or end of every speech, you don't just say your name and that you are a family physician, but that you are a proud family physician. And I would not be surprised if maybe someone had also I given her…

Dr. Tochi Iroku-Malize: Can I snap? Can I snap for that?

Dr. Aerial Petty: Yes!

Dr. Tochi Iroku-Malize: I'm going snap for that right now.

Dr. Aerial Petty: Absolutely!

Dr. Tochi Iroku-Malize: OK, so there you go.

Dr. Aerial Petty: So that’s an example of what she taught taught me, and not an hour ago in the Resident Congress, I gave that same piece of advice to someone who wants to run as resident representative, and so I think that's just such a perfect and timely example.

She taught me how to wear my name badge so that when I meet someone or shake hands with them, that their eye is directly brought to my name. She taught me that, when you're speaking, it's always a good idea to maybe speak a little slower just in case.

Dr. Tochi Iroku-Malize: Because we're New Yorkers, right?

Dr. Aerial Petty: I know, right? And she taught me that about 20 minutes ago as well, to remind me before this podcast.

So I think there are just so many discreet examples that I can provide that I use every single day and that I am continually provided with and reminded of, so that I can go on to be the kind of family physician that I want to be, but also to share that wealth of knowledge that has been given to me down, I mean, generations at this point, of excellence in family medicine leaders.

Emily Holwick: I feel like being here at FUTURE is the perfect place to talk about this, because even early in your career as a fellow, you're still inspiring the next generation and those students who are coming up, and you have the opportunity to talk to them and impart that knowledge already.

So no matter where you are in your career, family physicians have that opportunity.

And Dr. Nosal, for those who are listening who maybe want to mentor other women in family medicine, but maybe they don't know where to start or how to go about it, what advice do you have for them?

Mentorship is a two-way street

Dr. Sarah Nosal: I would tell you every day there are opportunities to be enjoying other humans and naturally fall into what we call mentorship, but really is more like a two-way street.

I mean, I have both learned a ton from Dr. Iroku-Malize and also I feel like I've pushed her a little bit to do the next thing.

Dr. Tochi Iroku-Malize: Yes, she has.

Dr. Sarah Nosal: You know, it's like, like we are both like so on social media together. But I feel like we took that journey, I think, together as that, because we were both really excited about it when it started.

I am like staying aware of what's happening? What are residents and our fellows thinking about? What is it like to be early in your career? So like while I might, you know, remind us wear our name badge sometimes…

Dr. Tochi Iroku-Malize: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Sarah Nosal: …we really get this like exchange of perspective that is a natural thing that happens.

So I think that you can be intentional, particularly I think… like, so Dr. Iroku-Malize is quite popular. I think everyone wants to be one of her mentees. I'm like, I feel like I got lucky on the ground level early.

And so, I think you also need to be intentional that you don't have all the time in the world. And so the organization that I practice medicine in, and myself, we try to think about where are there not always opportunities so that when we… because we will come across many people who we may be able to work with and help.

We, at the free clinic that I run, we run a specific program that is meant to mentor young people who are from the South Bronx community that are people of color, minoritized backgrounds, under-resourced backgrounds, who maybe can't get a rotation at a health location. They don't anyone in their family who's been to college, nonetheless med school and having those options.

So I think that when you have a lot of people who are looking to be mentored by you, and when you have opportunities like we do at the clinic that I run, that being intentional about who you open that opportunity up to… because there are individuals who need that even more, who need that door opened even more, and we should make sure we take that moment to think about who those are and be intentional when there's a lot of demands on it there.

But every day you're going to run into someone who will be excited to learn from you, and you can learn from them, and that is the beginning of any mentor relationship.

Emily Holwick: What advice do you have Dr. Iroku-Malize as a seasoned mentor?

Dr. Tochi Iroku-Malize: Ugh, “seasoned!” That's kind for “old.” OK, so…

Emily Holwick: No, no, “experienced.”

Dr. Tochi Iroku-Malize: No, that's OK, I own it. I'm fine with it.

Dr. Sarah Nosal: Inquiring minds want to know.

Be approachable and respect your own time

Dr. Tochi Iroku-Malize: Yes, “inquiring minds.” OK, you're right, right? It's not just the space here, clinical, our physician space, our academy space. It's going out and beyond.

So I belong to a number of, believe it or not, with my time, community-based organizations that I do some of these mentoring, everywhere. And even within my organization, we have opportunities for people who are not clinicians, but just need to have somebody, want to speak to someone.

And the key is being approachable, right? Because if you're not, then you're not going to be very good at it, right? So you need to be approachable. You need to be able to actively listen because… and that requires a special skill to stop and pause and listen to what the person is saying. So you have to train yourself to listen to what they're saying.

Don't don't rush to answer or give them feedback immediately. Try to understand what it is they're saying, what they're thinking about.

But to protect your time, because it is limited, make sure that there are certain boundaries and goals. So it's not just me giving advice all the time, it's you coming prepared.

So as I give you advice, right? Or if I say, “Hey, what is it that you want to do? OK, pay attention. Go to this resource.”

I love what the AAFP… I'm like, “OK, let's go to the AAFP.” I go do a Zoom call: “Here, see what resources the AAFP has on this topic, or this or that. OK, what do you have going on in your place? OK, what could you do? What do you think you could do? OK, great. You're going to do that. Boom, boom, boom, boom. All right, when we meet up again, these are your three assignments that you have to do. When you come back, let's see that you've done them, and then we'll take it from there.”

And that's really how it is. So it's just being very respectful of your time because you can't… There's so much to do. But then it’s the one-on-one things as well, when you're bumping into people on the road and if they come up to you at FUTURE or any other conference, or they pause. Even just saying, “Hey, I will give you some time if you really need it. OK, let's figure it out.”

I've got Maria, who's my exec assistant. She's my gatekeeper. So I'll give them her email, and she knows the drill. She'll schedule the time. You've got a 30-minute slot with her on this day so we can start the talk. These are brand-new people that I don't know. If I know you, yeah, that's fine. You chat with me, we text, we FaceTime, whatever. But everybody else who's brand new, that's what we'll do. Schedule the time and and then I have to put myself in that mindset. OK? I'm about to open myself for this individual, because I don't know how what I say to them will affect them in the future.

So I have to come with a positive… I don't care. It's like when you're seeing a patient and the next patient comes to the door and you've got a bad day, you wipe that clean and you are there present for them.

So if you're going to be a mentor, don't do it on a day you're in a bad mood. And if you're not ready to do it, then don't do it. It's OK. Everybody doesn't have to be a mentor, or today may not be your day. Maybe it's not your time. Your time will be in a month from now, or six months from now, or a year from now. But just be, you know, be cognizant of it, you know? So that's what I would say.

Emily Holwick: Yeah, a lot of really important points of great advice.

Coming from the other side, for someone who is looking to be mentored, Dr. Petty, for students and residents who are seeking that mentorship, what advice do you have when it comes to finding a mentor and making that connection?

How to ask for mentorship

Dr. Aerial Petty: The first piece of advice I have is to understand that mentorship comes in many forms. There are so many wonderful ways that I have gained mentorship from people over the years, both formally and informally, and I hope that no one is ever afraid to ask.

I think that's also a really important first step: Don't be afraid to go up to someone and ask for mentorship, or for support if you have questions.

I think that being prepared is really important, but I think that there are also stages of people's lives sometimes where you know that you need help or you need support and you don't quite know where to go for it.

I think that happens for a lot of people and for a lot of women who are looking to become the type of family physician that they want to be. And so for those who I have myself as mentees, there are moments when I try to remind them, like you can just say, “I need help, and I don't know what else to do but ask for it.”

I think everyone has that moment in their careers where they just need a little bit of guidance, even if it's not super specific. And so understanding that you can get that help from so many people in so many different ways, and that different people might be able to help you with different goals.

You don't have to have one mentor.

Dr. Tochi Iroku-Malize: No, definitely have many. Have many.

Dr. Aerial Petty: Many mentors, absolutely. Yeah. I have been blessed to have so many mentors who teach me different skills and offer me different types of support. And it's also important to realize like mentors kind of come and go in your lives sometimes.

Dr. Tochi Iroku-Malize: Yeah.

Dr. Aerial Petty: And some mentors stay for 30 years or the entirety of your career.

And those are both really important types of mentorship. It is fluid, it is ever-changing, and I think that's really important to understand when you're looking for mentorship.

A lot of people might have this set idea of what it should look like, but the only point of mentorship is that someone is there to guide you and to support you. And if at the end of the day that's what you're experiencing, you're being mentored.

Dr. Tochi Iroku-Malize: Right. Yeah. And I'm going add to that because I think sometimes people forget. We've all, I think all have had men, male mentors, right,…

Dr. Aerial Petty: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Tochi Iroku-Malize: …who have supported us really, really well.

Dr. Aerial Petty: Many.

From mentor to colleague

Dr. Tochi Iroku-Malize: So you have a number of them. But I want to say, I love that you said it's fluid, because some people, they've reached their point where they are no longer able to mentor you.

Dr. Aerial Petty: Yes.

Dr. Tochi Iroku-Malize: And you have to recognize that, because that has happened. So if you, if a mentor has given you advice and it just doesn't sit well with you, it's OK. They're now a friend and a colleague.

Dr. Aerial Petty: Yeah, normal.

Dr. Tochi Iroku-Malize: They're no longer your mentor.

Dr. Aerial Petty: Yeah.

Dr. Tochi Iroku-Malize: It's OK, because you know, at this point now you realize that OK, they no longer understand what your goal is, what your journey is, and it, and they were good for that beginning part of your journey, but now you've moved on.

They will remain a colleague. I've had mentors who were mentors who eventually, eh, gave some ill-advised advice, which I luckily didn't take. Because they didn't understand my growth or where I would be, and so they were trying to pigeonhole me into a place and I knew that wasn't me. So if you know who you are…

I mean, I was like, yeah, no, I'm not going to take that advice.

Dr. Aerial Petty: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Tochi Iroku-Malize: I said, that was it. And I said, OK, from that point on, we're just friends. You're no longer my mentor.

Dr. Aerial Petty: And maybe another mentor helped you figure that out.

Dr. Tochi Iroku-Malize: That's OK. That's OK.

Dr. Aerial Petty: Yeah.

Emily Holwick: Well, you have all shared so much great information and insight and your experiences. And before we go, I would love for you each to just share one main takeaway for our listeners that you hope they leave this conversation with.

Dr. Petty. I'll start with you.

Mentorship is not optional

Dr. Aerial Petty: I think that mentorship is necessary. It is not optional. Everyone should have, and everyone deserves to have, many good mentors throughout their lives that can support us in not only our career development, but our personal growth, because that is just as important, especially in family medicine and help to provide more equitable environments for all of us.

Mentorship provides a sense of connection and belonging and meaning. And I think we're lucky because we already have a lot of that in family medicine in general, but this just provides an added layer of support that I think we all deserve to have.

Emily Holwick: Dr. Nosal, what's your key takeaway?

Dr. Sarah Nosal: When you are a really driven female physician, it can feel a little lonely. And to have someone who not only has understanding but is invested in your success, that when you are not in the room and they hear something good has happened for you, that like that they're experiencing that joy for you, they are speaking good words about you when you are not there, that is a really special gift and it is something that will sustain you and carry you throughout this career.

And I am incredibly grateful for the two women in this room who have made that possible. And I hope to be able to, you know, watch it continue to happen for me and for everyone else, our lives get to touch.

Dr. Aerial Petty: She is going to make me cry.

Dr. Tochi Iroku-Malize: Yeah.

Emily Holwick: Dr. Iroku-Malize, I'll give you the last word.

Dr. Tochi Iroku-Malize: Just from this podcast, you can see that mentorship provides a ripple effect of empowerment, right? And so all of you out there, you can do this. Just start, take the first step, and be brave.

Emily Holwick: Thank you again so much for joining us, and for sharing and inspiring everyone who's listening, whether they're coming up as students or whether they're far along in their career and now maybe they're inspired to be that mentor and take the time to do that.

To our listeners, if you'd like to learn more about mentorship opportunities and find related resources, we have links in the show notes.

And if you enjoyed today's episode, let us know by dropping a line to aafpnews@aafp.org.

Be sure to share the episode with your followers on social media and tag the AAFP.